Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches

The other day I got sent a link to a web a journal article by Darren Cronshaw who used to have a lot with Forge and Peter Downes, National director of the Australian Vineyard Church: titled 'Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches'.

It's good to see an academic paper which is Australian about the Vineyard. It gives a good overview of what the Vineyard is about its values/distinctives. Also a good background to the history of the Australian Vineyard.

The gist of the paper is about how the Emerging Missional Church has interacted with Vineyard Church, and how there has been an emphasis on 'incarnational' instead of 'attractional'.

One example was given that of the Vineyard church in Cabramatta Sydney. I know the Church and the pastor the Greg Trainor the article is a fair summation.

There was certainly a time when the Vineyard church flirted with the Emerging Missional Church, especially Forge. I can remember when Alan Hirsch was invited along to the national conference. There is no doubt that to certain degrees the Emerging Church was on the agenda. Yet I would say there were churches in the Vineyard who where almost hostile to the other extreme all embracing. We were the latter.

The interesting thing is the Vineyard was always known as a Church planting movement. The incarnational approach of EMC I think more than any other thing aligned with church planting DNA of movement. There was a lot of young church plants at that time highly influenced by EMC, I mean young in two ways as in the leaders were in their 30's and they were new or beginning churches. The interesting thing is that at least three of these Churches aren't around any more. Neither is 'Forge' in Victoria or for that matter in Australia (there maybe something happening in Queensland, I'm not sure.) Allan Hirsch who kicked Forge off is living in America and doing well, but the home front has withered. The little endeavours have ceased and the ones that survived just look like any other church. Certainly 'red', the Church specifically planted by Allan just looks like any other church with maybe the demographics a bit younger.

It would be interesting where God leads the Vineyard next in Australia certainly from what I hear the compassion side in a systematic way has dropped off. I wouldn't be surprised if this part of the Vineyard AUS DNA is re-ignited.

 

 

 

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A history of God, Karen Armstrong

A few thoughts...

 

I'm reminded more and more when ever I read about the construction of the doctrine of the Trinity, especially about poor Arius (pg 127-128): how fickle language is, that much of the trinity is built around metaphors. Reading "A History of God", brought home to me that Christianity had no real doctrine if anything up to 300AD it was rather laissez fair. Yes scripture was important but the way it fitted together, the systemisation was not there.

The teaching of Allan Hirsch during my time at Forge. Hirschy stated that Christianity's greatest growth was during the that time of persecution. I wonder if also the un-systemisation of scripture also had an influence? I suspect so.

 

Forge 's impulse into the mainstream

An interesting comment on Mark Connor's blog which referred to Deb Hirsch speaking at his church City Life, got me pondering. City Life is the largest Church in Melbourne.

What I found interesting is the direction which Forge has moved. From the fringes when 10-15 years ago the mainstream was to be avoided. I can remember hearing Alan saying with my own ears that the main stream institutionalized church was DEAD! Yet now it seems the main stream is where Forge happily sits.

Those who I would say are on the fringe don't speak of Forge much if at all anymore. Strangely the only formal aspect of forge which is in QLD dosn't even mention that the Hirsches are in Australia. Their front page is somthing about a blues music outfit!

In the USA it seems Forge is going from strength to strength. It seems very upside down to me.

It seems to me that often in my life I have a 'Spiritual awakenings', Forge was one, the Vineyard another, yet they move or you move. Either way you could never go back to how things were.

Forge Australia winding back up?

 
Got an interesting comment on my blog 'Forge wind dowwnnn'::

g'day have a look at www.forge.org.au for Re launch event and we are still operating in the North with rumuors of starts again in the West, and down South. cheers,
st

Looks as there is a bit of life in Forge yet. I also got in my inbox as well as I discover on the forge.org.au web site  'Forge Re-launch' event.

Our first event on November 30  – LIVING WITH TOUGH CONVICTION IN AN EASY WORLD – features a number of ‘must-listen-to’ special guests. Michael Frost was a co -conspirator with Alan Hirsch at the beginning of the Forge journey and brings us a message about living with a tough conviction flavoured by stories of people he has bumped into on his journey.
Peter Breen was a Wesleyan Minister who has journeyed to Jugglers Art Space in Brisbane to support his love for art, artists and how faith fits into real life.
Stephen Drinkall, is involved with the Pathway collective, a group of friends working out what it means to live incarnationally in the suburbs, while supporting each other and many others in their wake.
Steve Turner, working with Forge for 7 years, best at being a missionary, worst at admin, loves people and finding the extraordinary hiding under the ordinary stuff of life.

Good on them re-launching Forge I think still has somthing to offer.
It is interesting the 'rumours' down south'. Most of the people I know down in Victoria who where connected with Forge where pretty exhausted and moving there own way after it all wound up. Although there where some interesting connections been made with City Life near the end.

Institutional Church and the Vineyard

Image via Wikipedia

Cutting edge had an interesting and positive article in their cutting edge summer 2010, on the institution of the 'Church'

Alan Hirsch wrote on his facebook "I am somewhat taken aback by this coming as it does from within the Vineyard *movement*. It sounds more like a Catholic or Anglo-Catholic take on ecclesiology."

I've read what Bert Wagner wrote and I'm a bit uncomfortable about his take on institutions. For example 'marriage' been an institution. I actually like the Catholic idea of it been a 'sacrament', a mode of God's grace.

Never the less, the Vineyard in the States is a denomination. (I'm not sure that the Australian Vineyard has the structure to say this). I'm comfortable about the 'institution' language and believe that God can work though this with it's stability and accountability; you just need some rebels around the edges.

The what do we do now question?

The Last question in Brian McLaren's book 'A New Kind of Christianity' is most importantly is "What do we do now?"

This is in many ways the most important question even if you agree with only one of the previous questions. There is then a mandate for you to change.

A few things which had me in agreement or pondering::


Keeping the balance between action and contemplation/reflection, in our life. (Ch 20)


What to do if you agree with 'A new type of Christianity', but your Church is not in this place? Some really good hints here. I like the way he gives good hints at sticking it out. (Ch 21)

Point 5, I particulary like about helping churches change.

::"Get an outside consultant":: Unfortuantely my time in the Vineyard in Australia all consultancy/mentoring was done 'in house', I think you really loose something no going outside the denomination.
::Look at 'parachurch' for an option in a denomination. I never even thought of this. Although I would think that Forge was probably in this bracket until it left Churches of Christ.
::When new people enter a Church embrace what the diversity in what they have to offer from their denomination. They most probably on want to share the things that are positive. Makes scene.


So that's "A New Kind of Christianity' all read and dusted. Would I recommend it to anyone. Nope. Its a book for people who struggles with any of these questions. But if you have it all down pat and happy with the way the world works you will probably on find this book frustrating.

Christian leaders popularity conference....

Had a laugh at this one, from the 'Out of Ur' blog (I didn't know what else to do!)

For this reason I was both saddened and disturbed by the Leadership Network’s decision to run a Twitter-based popularity contest to determine the speakers for THE NINES conference in 2010. The feedback form seen here allows users to submit the name of a church leader. Twitter users are then able to give a thumbs up or down to each person. Ranking is then automatically determined by the ratio of positive to negative votes a leader receives. Adding a dash of arsenic to an already distasteful dish, the site allows you to see exactly who voted up or down for each leader.

From the 'Feed back from', it was good to see Alan Hirsch our old mate from forge made the top ten. I was also surprised at the number one Francis Chan, I've read his book and found it cloaked in so much Christian culture most people would have though he was an alien. (Mind you 10 years ago I probably would have thought this book great!)

So would this make me want to go it, 'Nope': if I was a contestant would I want to go to it 'Nope', I'd be interested if Alan gos to it?

Now, what would Jesus do???

The Gap, where Forge once was....

One of the things that surprised me over the weekend at the Rusty Springs festival was the amount of people who had been through or connected to Forge. I suppose there are a number of feelings expressed.

• That Forges Message of 'Mission' is now common language to the major Churches. 
• That 'Main stream Churches' have diluted Forges message with there own spin.
• That now there is no, independent 'Space' for like minded people in Australia.
• A disappointment at the hype of 'Forge' in the USA, while Australia effectively shut its doors, especially in its birth place of Victoria.
• That Forge once a radical movement on the edge is now, especially in the USA, now appealing to the main stream middle. 

Some of these things I agree with, others I don't.

I think Forge has planted important seeds in Australia; yet I think in many ways, people and the idea will never be ignited in the same way. It was a sort of home, which you will look back with fondness yet know that you have grown up and can't go back.

‘futurum’ and ‘adventus’

My, Lecturer and Mentor Les Henson put up a post on ‘futurum’ and ‘adventus’,

Futurum’ is God working out his purposes in and through the everyday events of life, by which his work and reign is extended. It is mission that progresses through the means of the ordinary and the routine acts of mission personnel, local church members and organisational structures. ‘Adventus’ involves those times when God intervenes in history directly and dramatically (Ex. 3, Is.6 and Acts 2). It is mission that progresses through the extraordinary and unforeseen interventions of God. Ideally, mission should include both these aspects, God’s extraordinary work and the everyday instrumentality of human beings and their organisations.

I think there is a lot of truth with this stuff. Even in a Westen Culture. Though I see as mission and its language becomes more main stream heading towards the 'Futurum', in the West. The cowboys (Adventus) that I first meet. Especially in Forges early years appear to have been tamed a bit. Content to partner or even join the main stream.

Forge Australia Winding Dooowwwn

Had a phone call then got the email from the Forge crew last week about Forge winding down its operations in Australia. Then Al put up his note on Facebook.

The official line from the Forge web site as follows::

Several factors (among others) have contributed to this:

1. There has been an encouraging shift in the Australian church context in regards to missional awareness. Forge began very much as a prophetic voice that helped catalyze a missional movement. That shift has necessitated a change in our identity and structure, but it is not a change we have been able to successfully implement for reasons outlined in points 2 & 3 below.

2. A depletion of people and financial resources. We have struggled to keep operations sustainable and we observe that this may be an indicator that it is time to seriously re-assess our viability as an organization.

3. Our current decentralized organizational structure has made it difficult to move ahead cohesively. The challenges associated with transitioning Forge to be an effective training organisation for the new context proved too costly.

I suppose one of the things that I observed was that a lot of Forge was based around some amazing personalities, who were held together by the c haracter of Alan Hirsch. When Al left for the states a lot of these people just wern't around like they used to be... Anyway...

Its with a fair bit of saddness, both Christina and myself feel about its winding down. Forge for us was a breath of fresh air when we needed it most. Helping us break through a religiousness of the way of doing thing in our own denomination. There is a bit of a question now looming for me. Where will we find kindred spirits? Where will the tribe now gather?

Forge for a long while was the only voice, but now they are many and in many ways fragmented. Often having a denationalization or theological bent. In some ways that's a bit sad. It will be interesting what the future brings.

Leadership ::4 Alan Hirsch, moving on...

Sometimes a person will say something which sits very deeply with you. It is how I have evaluated part of my own ministry and, for the good or bad others ministry as well.

That person was Alan Hirsch. What he said was basically that every five years your leadership methods needs to change. That in five years if there has been no significant growth then things need to change. If in five years there has been significant growth then there is a need for change in your leadership methods because you are now working with more people.
If after ten years, where there was no significant growth in the first five years and there was a re-jigging of leadership methods, then there was still no significant growth in ten years . Then its time to move on.

I have seen beyond a doubt churches, which are stagnate, yet the main leadership is satisfied that they are doing alright. Mmmm, time for critical evaluation I would say. Just looking at the Hirsch idea is a good place to start.

Its petty good idea, except I think five years is to long. I'd like to think a more realistic time would be three to four years.

Solace, Sunday @ the Forge 2nd intensive

On Sunday morning instead of been at Ranges we headed to Solace EMC in Fairfield as part of the 2nd Forge intensive. I had heard a lot about Solace so I was pretty happy to attend.

1) We attended the "Solace Sunday Stuff", a bit of a blurb on that from there web site

Sunday Stuff is hosted by Fairfield SPACE (and contributes time and effort into the facilities and connecting to other parts if Fairfield SPACE in return). Sunday Stuff is a gathering of people who pray, worship, learn from the Bible and fellowship together. There are no requirements to conform to a specific set of beliefs, but the gathering is centred on the life and teachings of Jesus.

I really did think this was one of the first times that we really participated as a family at Church. There was a real effort to intergate all ages which I realy appreciated. Kids been Kids was no problem. (Phew) I was also under the impression that Solace was a lot larger. It was about the same or a little smaller than us at Ranges.

2) I could see that they have identified similar issues as us. It would appear that Solace EMC Vineyard Cataylst Network, have a bit of an overlap. The ideas of being a "network" as well as "self directed groups" spring to mind.

3) Connection with the Anglican Church. Olivia was asked a few times about the formal relationship with the Anglican church (Not by myself). I felt that the answers were rather complicated in nature and that most probably there were a few difficulties. What was made quite clearly was that Solace EMC was incorporated independently of the Anglican Church.

4) Interested that they put the EMC on there name. Emergent Missional Church. A lot of pastors are thinking through this stuff but, not actually claiming it. Especially the "Emergent" side of the conversation.

5) Money, I'm not sure how many people are on "staff", but even if they employed one person full time I don't think that this congregation would able to support them. I wonder if some funding comes in from the Anglicans or the OP Shop?

I couldn't talk up Solace enough. Overall you feel that it is a safe place where people are encouraged to find where they fit with Spirituallity, and there is no rush. That the compartmentalness of large churches is just not part of there thinking. It would certainly be an option for us if we didn't have Ranges.

Forge intensive, 2009, @ Northern Church of Christ

Just a few thoughts...

*I didn't meet anyone from the pioneering stream. Once upon a time there was only the pioneering stream.

*Most of the people who I met were getting accredited from bible colleges or just decided to do a one off intensive.

*It would appear that most people are in mainstream churches, that some are exploring the idea of transitioning.

*It was good to hear Alan Hirsch speak. I have this nagging question. Is Alan still a pioneering practitioner. Or has he turned his hand at helping churches mainly large, in transitioning. I suspect the latter. 

*It was good to hang out with people who are exploring mission and missional theory to an Australian context.

*Christina spoke well on sustainability, lots of positive feedback.

Mick and Ruby Dunan, Forge intensive

Just a few points regarding Mick and Ruby Duncan, from New Zealand, speaking at Forge's 2nd intensive.

I went to the first session and Christina went to the second.

Mick adn Ruby spoke on 'companion' theory. Which they named 'Alongsiders' and modified the content.
Alongsiders is not necessarily 'friendship', Friendship being an organic relationship.

Being an 'alongsiders' is getting alongside a person who is socially isolated, who would normally be disliked.

That the relationship is genuine in nature.

Not progamatic in nature

Has 5 stages

Contemplation
Initiation
Growth and maintenence
Decline deterioration
Renegotiation

To be effective it needs to be 18 months plus.

The content presented was brilliant stuff. I think as Christians we often think we have to be friends with everyone. Mick revealed that with integrity you can still walk along side a person authentically.

I'll be getting the mp3s which I missed.
-- Post From My iPhone

An evening with Deb and Alan Hirsch

Tonight myself and the girls went to an evening with Deb and Alan Hirsch. This post is done on the iPhone so sorry about the quality. I've just jotted down the main points.

Deb's reflections.

US

Sevice based. Can do. We can do ideas.

Aussie

Rather cynical, what you see is what you get. Authentic but a little bit rude.

A lot more competition with Australian Churches.
A negative spirit in the church, within Australia.

Alan thoughts

Warning against missional liberalism. (would have liked to have seen this unpacked a bit)

A synergy happening with larger churches and new missional thinking.

US will be where western church is turned around.

There were a lot more points, but these got me pondering.

Stretched

One of my favorite reads is 'Backyard missionary', I've got a lot of respect for Hammo as one who has gone before me. His las post "Stretch" a reflection of his community in Perth has had me thinking a little bit.

The line-

I have said a number of times that on a scale of 1-10, if normal established church life is ‘1′ then we probably ‘jumped’ out to around an ‘8′, to a place of unfamiliarity and to an environment that made most Christians uncomfortable. (Its ok for overseas missionaries to jump to ‘8′ but not local ones!)

For me, after we did Forge and the stagnancy of Ranges at the time I would have done the same as Hamo, gone to 8 straight away. I supose Ranges would have been about a 2 on Hammos scale. We didn't do the plunge for a few good reasons. We were a new church plant 3 years old and the people that we had with us already had gone through enough joining our team. We decided that the external would look the same but the underpinning would change.

So it has been a slow movement up the scale at Ranges we would now be about a 3-4. Although the Vineyard Catalyst Network which we set up, the communities would be 5-8.

Hammo also mentioned some of the difficulties meeting others expectations

• Children's Ministry
• feed
• worship

I think these problems happen for every church, large and small communities. Yet they have their own set of issues. Eg a large church you start having great worship, then... 'excellence, elitism' sneaks in the music team, which no one can crack. (Yep I've been in and tried to get into these types of teams, very clicky).

I think it would be easier just to start at hammos ranking of 8 without a Christian team. Or if people wanted to join, you lay your cards on the tables. The 'feed', 'worship', 'Children's Ministry' expectations are made pretty clear. I really think next time this is how we will do things.