A big God part 2

This post is an expansion of the first post 'A big God' and is a request from Rebecca to 'Explain more'.

One of the things that really started to get my heart racing about the Vineyard Church was when those in leadership explained the centre set model. From memory it is a term from sociology which John Wimber adapted for the Church. It is basically the idea that all organisations/groups have barriers or rings which define whether somebody is 'in' or 'out'. For Jesus (and this is the bit I liked) there were no barrier, no conditions everyone is accepted. Wimber basically said there was a need to define less what the barriers are and that so long as people are face the direction of wanting to know Jesus more he was happy with them belonging.

Sounds great but in practice its not easy. The Vineyard (and I'm only talking Australia), accepted people how they looked, dressed, spoke, burped. This could be tolerated just about forever. Yet for beliefs its different. There could be an initial weirdness but there needed to be evidence of change at least in the first year and constant change. Or your out, usually by the cold shoulder, ignored and described as loopy or demonic.

Now when it comes to beliefs the Uniting Church's God appears to me to be a bit more tolerance.  The orthodoxy of what you believe isn't a prerequisite of belonging. Yet in other areas, such as dress, if you don't wash or burb then from the gut feeling at the Church I go to, most of the congregation woud stuggle a bit with this.

I'm still looking for a 'Big God' one that fits that center set model. Hope that answers your question Bec.

Related articles

• Do they really care what Jesus would do? (4simpsons.wordpress.com)

Kundalini and baptism in the Spirit...

While reading "Jesus the teacher within" by Laurence Freeman,  I came across the word "Kundalini" which is common in eastern religion. I had never heard of this before. So a quick wiki search and I came up with the definition as well as what Kundalini looks like when manifest. Its basic definition is a corporeal energy which is based in the spine. While the physical effects are as follows::

• Involuntary jerks, tremors, shaking, itching, tingling, and crawling sensations, especially in the arms and legs
• Energy rushes or feelings of electricity circulating the body
• Intense heat (sweating) or cold, especially as energy is experienced passing through the chakras
• Spontaneous pranayama, asanas, mudras and bandhas
• Visions or sounds at times associated with a particular chakra
• Diminished sexual desire or a state of constant orgasm
• Emotional purgings in which particular emotions become dominant for short periods of time.^[19]
• Depression
• Pressure inside the skull and headache
• Bliss, feelings of infinite love and universal connectedness, transcendent awareness

What I found interesting was  8 out of 10 of these descriptions I have heard as definitions of been 'Baptised in the Holy Spirit' or manifestations of God, especially within a church service. (Yes even the constant state of orgasm!) I've actually experienced a few of these myself. That yes I would attribute these to God. These manifestations are especially evident in the Vineyard denomination which was the last Church which I ministered in. 

CS Lewis (I think) in 'Mere Christianity' made the point that Christianity does share much with other religions and it is specifically grace where Christianity is distinct.

Related articles

• Kundalini Meditation (brighthub.com)
• Is there a "mere Christianity"? (geneveith.com)

Men Lead, Women Obey?

Some good reading material in 'The Age' today. Barney Zwartz religious editor wrote 'Men Lead Women Obey'. He quoted a few people that I follow::


First person:: Kevin Giles. Probably the best theological proponent of women having equal status in leadership in the Church. His book on Subordination within the Trinity is excellent. He also spoke recently at the Vineyard pastors get together in Melbourne.

Second Person:: Cheryl Catford. One of my lecturers a long time ago. I like what Zwartz used from her

Paradoxically, such churches often have glamorous women in the pulpit while at the same time teaching that women must be subordinate...

I also like to see what Mark Driscolle is getting up to. He sort of represent the ultimate in muscle testosterone male. Zwartz quoted one of his well know quotes

'real men avoid the church because it projects a hippie queer Christ, whereas me want the "Ultimate fighting Jesus" '

By the way I don't agree with the above quote. Historically males have always been under represented in Church. I'm sure there is a much more complicated answer to this.

Personally I'm a bit over worrying if women should lead. Its an argument that long gone for me. I suspect most people think it strange that we can have equality where a female can lead the country, yet many in the Church are still having the argument about women in leadership.

 To check out the original article have a look here

miracles

David Hayward, who used to blog under "The Naked Pastor", has once again put up a thought provoking post. "I've never seen a miracle". The basic premise that there are plenty of miracles around us, a sun rise, reconcilliation forgivness etc. Yet the type we hear in charismatic or penticostal churches are non existent. Its a big statement to make by David, pastoring a Vineyard Church (I think) which was built on "Signs and Wonders"

But I have to come out of the closet and admit that I’ve never seen a “miracle”, like someone’s sight restored, or a limb replaced, or cancer cured, or the lame walk, or someone brought back to life (I’ll have to tell you the story some time of a guy who tried to get me to sneak into the back room of a funeral home just before the funeral was about to begin to pry open the coffin and raise the man from the dead. I weaseled my way out of that one!). Not that I don’t pray for these things to happen. And I will continue to do so. I am human and in times of great love or fear I cry out for any help at all. But I have never seen it happen.

I pretty much agree. I give a sigh of relief. That when people claim them in church settings there is a "mob" mentality to it. Where the group/congregation talks themselves into it.

Yet I don't discount miricles all together. Strangly my experience of miricles have been more dramatic outide of the church than within it. When I did my stint at palliative nursing there where a couple of amazing times of when people would be discharged from our books. Alive, and not Christians. (Oh no not the thought the devil can heal as well).

Is there another way...

I've been pretty much part of the Vineyard movement in Victoria since its inception over ten years ago. I have been part of two church plants and one established church. One of the Church plants was one which Christina and myself planted. So I think I could say that I've seen a bit.

Out of these eight churches that are running only two churches have the resources to employ staff at full time or more.
The rest of the churches only employ pastors part time.
That Vineyad in Victoria have planted three Churches which have failed.
Starting, maintaining and growing a church on limited resources is incredibly stressful, not only on pastors but their families and other leaders.
I suspect other states would mirror the Victorian experience.

My question is. Is there another way?

I would say that there is. But mindset of what Church looks like needs to change. Or in other words there needs to be creativity and innovation to the approaches to creating Christian communities of faith.
Does it need to have a 'worship leader', meet every Sunday at 10am, have home groups, self help groups, constant conversions, help out at the local school...? All these things are good but if you want to start with a bang like this, you need a team of 50 and a budget of well over $100,000 for the first three years. Mindset is the first thing that needs to change.