Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches

The other day I got sent a link to a web a journal article by Darren Cronshaw who used to have a lot with Forge and Peter Downes, National director of the Australian Vineyard Church: titled 'Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches'.

It's good to see an academic paper which is Australian about the Vineyard. It gives a good overview of what the Vineyard is about its values/distinctives. Also a good background to the history of the Australian Vineyard.

The gist of the paper is about how the Emerging Missional Church has interacted with Vineyard Church, and how there has been an emphasis on 'incarnational' instead of 'attractional'.

One example was given that of the Vineyard church in Cabramatta Sydney. I know the Church and the pastor the Greg Trainor the article is a fair summation.

There was certainly a time when the Vineyard church flirted with the Emerging Missional Church, especially Forge. I can remember when Alan Hirsch was invited along to the national conference. There is no doubt that to certain degrees the Emerging Church was on the agenda. Yet I would say there were churches in the Vineyard who where almost hostile to the other extreme all embracing. We were the latter.

The interesting thing is the Vineyard was always known as a Church planting movement. The incarnational approach of EMC I think more than any other thing aligned with church planting DNA of movement. There was a lot of young church plants at that time highly influenced by EMC, I mean young in two ways as in the leaders were in their 30's and they were new or beginning churches. The interesting thing is that at least three of these Churches aren't around any more. Neither is 'Forge' in Victoria or for that matter in Australia (there maybe something happening in Queensland, I'm not sure.) Allan Hirsch who kicked Forge off is living in America and doing well, but the home front has withered. The little endeavours have ceased and the ones that survived just look like any other church. Certainly 'red', the Church specifically planted by Allan just looks like any other church with maybe the demographics a bit younger.

It would be interesting where God leads the Vineyard next in Australia certainly from what I hear the compassion side in a systematic way has dropped off. I wouldn't be surprised if this part of the Vineyard AUS DNA is re-ignited.

 

 

 

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Releationship within the Vineyard Australia

Had a friend in the United States who asked me a couple of questions about relationships within the Vineyard Australia. I thought that It maybe worthwhile to put up the questions and answers of my experiences of nearly five years ago.

 

1. What is the overall structure like in Vineyard AUS? Is it based more in legal structural arrangements or more relational?

The relationship is primarily relational. Each church has there own seperate legal incorperation status. Which may or may not specify its relationship to the Vineyard church in Australia. There is an overall seperate organisation in Australia which function to facilitate interatction between churches through, consultants, conferences etc. It is also assists in conflict as well as interacts internationally with Vineyard internationaly This is usualy organised by the national director.

Each church who wants to benifit from the australian organisation has an unspoken expectation to attend conferences. Churches also have to contribute financially to the overarching body, through a levy or tithe.

2. What is the primary metaphor that is lived out in Vineyard AUS? (For instance, some churches and church networks use the "Family of God" metaphor as a basis, some use "church-planting movement", some "prayer movement"...so is there a primary (or perhaps even some secondary ones) metaphor for Vineyard AUS?

It would be 'Family' as the dominant DNA, although elements of 'church-planting' are there but would seem to me to be secondary. I can remember when I started within the Vineyard as a pastor there was discussion about the metaphor 'family' and conflict. It was stated that just like a family we stick together, through dna: but we maybe differnt.

3. How do churches and Vineyard AUSleaders interact?

Specifically this is through confernces. Its though these conference that may facilitate ongoing relationships with other Vineyard Churches. I found these difficult as I felt like I had to go, even though I didn't want to. My interaction was primarily with a few like minded people there. They conferences were pretty much dominated from a Vineyard 'old school' who had been influenced by the renewal movement which happened in the 80's early 90's. I primarily interacted with other Vineyard churches which had a 'emerging, missional' bent, a minority. If I got any support from the Vineyard, it was these like minded Vineyard whom I sought out, or vice versa.

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A short history of Myth :: Karen Armstrong

A short history of Myth :: Karen Armstrong

This book caused me to reflect. For me the understanding of myth occurred just a few years ago. The difference of reading something for truth as opposed to a literal meaning. As theologian Marcus Borg writes, to believe in rather than believe that. It hit home while watching The life of PI, two different stories yet both parallel and with the same ending. Which one was real? Which one was true? PI asks the officials which story they prefer at the end of the movie. They choose the story with the animals (Which is way more dramatic). Pi thanks them and says "And so it goes with God."

These type of insights are why I do not give up on fiction. They speak to me.

It is no wonder on reflecting on the Armstrong's book that at least within my past denomination The Vineyard, prophesy, visions have a place in the Church. They have a myth like quality. They take a brake from the literalness, the inerrancy of scripture. It is the remodelling of truths in a different way, parallel to the bible message.

It seems to me stories of myth, are to few in our culture, we are dying in many ways because of it.

 

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Hearing God Speak

An interesting program on Radio National 'Hearing God speak' by Rachael Kohn interviewing Tanya Luhrmann who is a psychological anthroplogist and did her study in two Vineyard Churches in the United States. The denomination which was part of my tribe not so long ago.

Here is part of the blurb::

Do you have to be Jesus to hear God speak? Or just loony? Neither, if you're an Evangelical Christian, for whom hearing God speak is the most treasured part of your prayer life.

If hearing God speak is not unusual, then how can you experience it? Evangelical Christians use prayer, meditation and spiritual exercises which help develop a mind that is open to revelation.

The interview was for me nothing new, it was very respectful of the Vineyard denomination and shed it in a good light.

I am interested in continuing to explore what Tanya has to thing and will be ordering her book at some stage "When God talks back"

 

Vineyard Theology, the here and now

 

Wimber and his theology of the "Kingdom" was largely attributed to the work done by the theologian "Eldon Ladd". Lately I've been reading Quaker literature; Wimber himself was when he became a Christian a member of the Quaker movement. In America it is evangelical in nature (In Quaker language 'programed', but shares a strong inheritance with the Australian equivalent (Non-programed).

In many ways Quaker theology is very hard to pin down, especially in the 'non-programed' tradition due to the idea that they don't believe in doctrine and the dogma that surrounds it. One of the questions in their FAQ is do Quakers believe in an afterlife. The answer is some what avoided but the reply is somthing like: Quakers would rather have a greater emphesis on what is happening now on earth and our testimonies should be a witness to this. (Testemonies include integrigty. Wimber often spoke on 'Authenticity'!) In other words the 'here and now".

It is also interesting that during a Quaker meeting that 'Waiting' on the Spirit is integral. In the 'non-programed' tradition, that is all that happens. Often an hour of just waiting. Very much like during a Vineyard session of worship waiting during a lull in the music for the Spirit to speak.

So my conclusion is that I think a lot of Wimbers theology came firstly out of a place of practice, through his involvment in the Quaker movement. That he lived the 'Kingdom Theology' prior to finding the 'Eldon ladd' theology which fitted with his practice.

 

Some Quaker web sites::

Quakers Australia

Quakers England

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What if the Missional Church went Charismatic?

My old college friend Tim Hein wrote an interesting blog: "What if the Missional Church went Charismatic?" He starts the post with thoughts from Clark Pinnock, (One of my old favorite authors who started my affinity for open theism). Briefly Tim describes how the Holy Spirit within the church takes two modes sacramental and charismatic. Tim then goes on to describe this in practice within the Australian church historically. The renewal or the third wave movement in the 80's. I was involved in the vineyard Church, which was part of this movement. Then the 'missional' Church which I was also involved in refocused things on the Sacremental. It was good to read and have a language for somthing which I went through.

 

Tim asks the question: will the next large renewal within the Church be a merge of these two aspects of the Holy Spirit?

I though about this a lot yesterday. There is possibility, but like all renewels it will come from the mainstream of the Church. I don't think this would include the AOG, Vinyeard or any overtly Chrrismatic group/denomination. The gifts and how they are observed are so well ingrained. My own opinion is that the Charismatic movement has hit 'peak', similar to 'peak oil'; they wont pick up any greater percentage of converts with the Charismatic style and the rules of bagage that goes with it. Most people have already observed and felt similar experience to Charismatic Churches. The ecstasy and feeling of oneness which may happen in a close football match, or a rock concert. Other religions have the same outward expression as Charismatic, the Hindu kundalini for example. Australian now are more likely to weigh this up before making a commitment.

 

I think if the what Tim preposes did come about the movement would be from the Sacrmental side; those who are interested in the more active Charismatic, but hold most stongly to the sacremental. Maybe the renewal would come from the denomination which Tim is in, The Uniting Church. Which is more open to diffen't ideas, it has wide doors. (A wide variety of theology as well) Without neccesary kicking people or making people increadably uncomfortable, if they don't agree.

Institutional Church and the Vineyard

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Cutting edge had an interesting and positive article in their cutting edge summer 2010, on the institution of the 'Church'

Alan Hirsch wrote on his facebook "I am somewhat taken aback by this coming as it does from within the Vineyard *movement*. It sounds more like a Catholic or Anglo-Catholic take on ecclesiology."

I've read what Bert Wagner wrote and I'm a bit uncomfortable about his take on institutions. For example 'marriage' been an institution. I actually like the Catholic idea of it been a 'sacrament', a mode of God's grace.

Never the less, the Vineyard in the States is a denomination. (I'm not sure that the Australian Vineyard has the structure to say this). I'm comfortable about the 'institution' language and believe that God can work though this with it's stability and accountability; you just need some rebels around the edges.

Reimargining Church, Frank Viola

 

At last I've finished the book. I did set out to summarize each chapter but....

The end of the book Viola makes an important statement::

If you have understood and accepted the message of this book, then you have drawn two significant conclusion:

1. The institutional church as we know it today does not reflect the church that God originally intended.
2. The church that Scripture envisions is organic in its nature and expression, and the Lord desires to recover it today.

Agreeing or disagreeing with this statement is a good way of summarizing this book.

There are a number of responses to this statement.

If you an evangelical who takes the majority of scripture as literally then I think you have to agree with the statement. Churches as we know it are not scriptural but have been shaped by humans.

If on the other hand you are a Christian of a "progressive" or "liberal" bent. Then Viola's forceful argument does not sit as well. The traditions and sacrements in the Church in themselves have value and significant Spiritual significance.

Personally I think the small group is a better way in which community develops. I also like the idea of the 'priest-hood of believers'. I also find meaning in a lot of the traditions and sacraments within the church

One last comment on the last Chapter, which I don't think was neccessary in the book. Viola has a go at most of the main large grouping of evangelicals. He has a go at the 'Vineyard', through the 'Third wave, restoration' label. (Who would know what 'third wave' meant why not just say who the churches are....).

....most third-wave-restoration churches have put the cart before the horse. Namely, they have sought to possess the power of the Spirit before they have gone under the flesh-severing knife of the cross.

I'm not sure what he is trying to get at. There are plenty of examples of the Spirit coming along doing stuff prior to any knowlege of the cross eg pentescost. Anyway what anoys me is 'I've got friends in this movement, blah blah blah. I think he should have just left the chapter out instead of grand genralisations.

Otherwise its a great book if you are in the evangelical camp.

If you want to see my chapter summaries they are here

Jason Clark's summary of Caleb Maskell on the Vineyard...

Jason Clark over in the UK has summarised reflections on a talk by Caleb Maskell, on the Vineyard movement

1. Transition: The vineyard is in transition, moving from a ‘renewal movement’ to a ‘church movement.  A movement that renewed the church at large, but that now needs to become a movement of disciple making, and this transition has been and is still, a painful one.
2.  Pruning: Caleb drew on some bible passages much used by the Vineyard itself (e.g Isaiah 61), to frame this process as part of season, and the wintering of the Vineyard and a time of pruning that has been taking place, for the necessity and before the possibility of new growth.  Things that used to work don’t any more, and many of us in vineyard might be asking if we are a branch that has been cut off.
3.  Choice: As a movement we can pursue more extreme forms of renewal and revival, for our orientation, but need to bear in mind the revivals our movement prophesied that didn’t happen, and perhaps instead explore the move to be a ‘church movement’

I'd encourage you to check out the rest of the conversation over at Jason's blog and make a contribution.

I think the most interesting reflection which I haven't heard of before is the 'church renewal movement' to a 'Church movement'. This makes a lot of sense to me.

any move left in our movement’?

Jason clark over at his Blog  deep church is going to run a serices based on a sessions at the UK National conference::

So coming to our national conference with that in mind, it was timely to have Caleb Maskell, in a main conference session, a trained church historian (Princeton University) and vineyard church planter, reviewing our own history, and asking if there was ‘any move left in our movement’?

His review was encouragingly and necessarily critical, exploring some of what has given rise to the more painful transitions of the vineyard, and it was hopeful, in that it asked us to consider what would be required for us to be more than a renewal movement of the past, and located that within a traditioned and scriptured possibility.  Caleb also exhorted us to undertake the necessary reflection and work, and thinking theologically, that such a possibility would take.

One thing that seems to be getting clearer after reading a lot of blogs is that The Vineyard Church in the US and internationally is in decline. That questions of theology, practice and doctrine and now been asked...

Vinyard at the crossroads

jason coker's blog - pastoralia - had some great dissucion regarding the direction of the Vineyard Church

did tony jones kill the vineyard?

vineyard churches at the crossroads

12th January there was a meeting with Vinyeard leaders who are leading non-traditional missional Vineyard Churches.

Included in the discussion were

• Bill Farris – Orange County, CA
  
• Pete & Gail Mosgofian – Arcata, CA
  
• Mike McCoy – Concord, CA
• Jason & Jenell Coker – North County San Diego, CA
• Eric Brown – Huntington Beach, CA
• David Ruis – Hollywood, CA

Hat tip to Steve, from Verve and verse for putting me onto this.


(see if you can see my contribution...)

Is there another way...

I've been pretty much part of the Vineyard movement in Victoria since its inception over ten years ago. I have been part of two church plants and one established church. One of the Church plants was one which Christina and myself planted. So I think I could say that I've seen a bit.

Out of these eight churches that are running only two churches have the resources to employ staff at full time or more.
The rest of the churches only employ pastors part time.
That Vineyad in Victoria have planted three Churches which have failed.
Starting, maintaining and growing a church on limited resources is incredibly stressful, not only on pastors but their families and other leaders.
I suspect other states would mirror the Victorian experience.

My question is. Is there another way?

I would say that there is. But mindset of what Church looks like needs to change. Or in other words there needs to be creativity and innovation to the approaches to creating Christian communities of faith.
Does it need to have a 'worship leader', meet every Sunday at 10am, have home groups, self help groups, constant conversions, help out at the local school...? All these things are good but if you want to start with a bang like this, you need a team of 50 and a budget of well over $100,000 for the first three years. Mindset is the first thing that needs to change.

Re-imagining the Holy Spirit

Steve Hamilton a fellow blogger, emailed me regarding a series he is writing with Jason Clark from Deep Church blog (Vineyard Sutton) regarding the Holy Spirit...

If you are interested, check out the blog conversation on “Re-imagining the Holy Spirit” that will go on for about 6 or 8 weeks on Jason Clark’s Deep Church blog (Jason is the senior pastor at the Vineyard Church Sutton in the UK). It begins on Monday [at least Monday in the UK ;-) ]. I am writing materials and he is writing materials and then we will post and interact with each others writings about Re-imagining the Holy Spirit, being charismatic and spiritual gifts in emerging and missional contexts. Should be an interesting discussion, so if you are up for it, jump in.

http://deepchurch.org.uk/

Todd Hunter, Anglicans: Not for me

For those of you who may or may not know, Tod Hunter who was the National director of the Vineyard denomination. He took the mantel of John Wimber: which he shed pretty quickly. He then headed up the Alpha course in the USA. Now he has taken the Anglican plunge.
There is a pretty informative interview in Christianity today about his move over to Anglicanism, the emergent movement and the Vineyard. Much of the interview got me thinking about my own reflections on Anglicanism.
As a person that has moved from Anglicanism, there are things which I didn't understand when I was growing up about the liturgy. They were really never explained. I really struggled with a man wearing a dress, waving his arms around muttering things. Now probably have more appreciation liturgy and its meaning.
Yet the reason that Anglicanism annoyed me is the heirarcy, the institution. I would say the majorty of Anglicans in Australia actually enjoy it. Especially the ones I know. Yet from my observation it steals away what other christians within the church could be doing. There is an expectation that the minister does it all. Like it or not. It is the default setting, even if the minister in charge wants to change it. For me the wearing of vestments just emphasizes this. It is the reason that I could never go back.
Stangely I have more capacity to participate in liturgy (even out of the anglican prayer book), in our community, than I ever could within the Anglican Church.

Naked Pastor attends the Frank Viola conference

I was interested to read on Naked Pastor's blog, his thoughts on the Frank Viola conference which he attended. I was especially interested in his thoughts regarding the parallels to the Vineyard Movement.

Viola says that he has been outside of the institutional church for over 20 years. But the problems that he admits so beset the house-church movement sound remarkably similar to what, say, my denomination, the Vineyard movement, presently struggles with. The issues of theology, purity, passion, mission, power and authority, money, commitment, isolation versus networking and clustering, are identical. We are all talking about the same old solutions to the same old problems.

Im glad that the Vineyard movement has moved on from this stuff a bit. That for us in the Vineyard Catalyst network there is the ability to do House church stuff, that Frank Viola talks about.

I'll be continuing my look at Frank Viola's book Reimagining Church on this blog and I'll drag some of my previous posts of the ranges blog across as well.