Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches

The other day I got sent a link to a web a journal article by Darren Cronshaw who used to have a lot with Forge and Peter Downes, National director of the Australian Vineyard Church: titled 'Vineyard meets Emerging Missional Churches'.

It's good to see an academic paper which is Australian about the Vineyard. It gives a good overview of what the Vineyard is about its values/distinctives. Also a good background to the history of the Australian Vineyard.

The gist of the paper is about how the Emerging Missional Church has interacted with Vineyard Church, and how there has been an emphasis on 'incarnational' instead of 'attractional'.

One example was given that of the Vineyard church in Cabramatta Sydney. I know the Church and the pastor the Greg Trainor the article is a fair summation.

There was certainly a time when the Vineyard church flirted with the Emerging Missional Church, especially Forge. I can remember when Alan Hirsch was invited along to the national conference. There is no doubt that to certain degrees the Emerging Church was on the agenda. Yet I would say there were churches in the Vineyard who where almost hostile to the other extreme all embracing. We were the latter.

The interesting thing is the Vineyard was always known as a Church planting movement. The incarnational approach of EMC I think more than any other thing aligned with church planting DNA of movement. There was a lot of young church plants at that time highly influenced by EMC, I mean young in two ways as in the leaders were in their 30's and they were new or beginning churches. The interesting thing is that at least three of these Churches aren't around any more. Neither is 'Forge' in Victoria or for that matter in Australia (there maybe something happening in Queensland, I'm not sure.) Allan Hirsch who kicked Forge off is living in America and doing well, but the home front has withered. The little endeavours have ceased and the ones that survived just look like any other church. Certainly 'red', the Church specifically planted by Allan just looks like any other church with maybe the demographics a bit younger.

It would be interesting where God leads the Vineyard next in Australia certainly from what I hear the compassion side in a systematic way has dropped off. I wouldn't be surprised if this part of the Vineyard AUS DNA is re-ignited.

 

 

 

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A history of God, Karen Armstrong

A few thoughts...

 

I'm reminded more and more when ever I read about the construction of the doctrine of the Trinity, especially about poor Arius (pg 127-128): how fickle language is, that much of the trinity is built around metaphors. Reading "A History of God", brought home to me that Christianity had no real doctrine if anything up to 300AD it was rather laissez fair. Yes scripture was important but the way it fitted together, the systemisation was not there.

The teaching of Allan Hirsch during my time at Forge. Hirschy stated that Christianity's greatest growth was during the that time of persecution. I wonder if also the un-systemisation of scripture also had an influence? I suspect so.

 

Forge 's impulse into the mainstream

An interesting comment on Mark Connor's blog which referred to Deb Hirsch speaking at his church City Life, got me pondering. City Life is the largest Church in Melbourne.

What I found interesting is the direction which Forge has moved. From the fringes when 10-15 years ago the mainstream was to be avoided. I can remember hearing Alan saying with my own ears that the main stream institutionalized church was DEAD! Yet now it seems the main stream is where Forge happily sits.

Those who I would say are on the fringe don't speak of Forge much if at all anymore. Strangely the only formal aspect of forge which is in QLD dosn't even mention that the Hirsches are in Australia. Their front page is somthing about a blues music outfit!

In the USA it seems Forge is going from strength to strength. It seems very upside down to me.

It seems to me that often in my life I have a 'Spiritual awakenings', Forge was one, the Vineyard another, yet they move or you move. Either way you could never go back to how things were.

Institutional Church and the Vineyard

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Cutting edge had an interesting and positive article in their cutting edge summer 2010, on the institution of the 'Church'

Alan Hirsch wrote on his facebook "I am somewhat taken aback by this coming as it does from within the Vineyard *movement*. It sounds more like a Catholic or Anglo-Catholic take on ecclesiology."

I've read what Bert Wagner wrote and I'm a bit uncomfortable about his take on institutions. For example 'marriage' been an institution. I actually like the Catholic idea of it been a 'sacrament', a mode of God's grace.

Never the less, the Vineyard in the States is a denomination. (I'm not sure that the Australian Vineyard has the structure to say this). I'm comfortable about the 'institution' language and believe that God can work though this with it's stability and accountability; you just need some rebels around the edges.

The Church Question

Going though the questions posed by Brian McLaren in his book "A New Kind of Christianity", we come to the question of "The Church".

Strangly this question also had the smallest amout of text allocated to it. Just one brief chapter. Where as most of the other questions had at least two chapters assigned to them.


Sort of leading on from the last chapter instead of having a 'Pauline' type of Church re-shaping the Church along a more Christological stance.

I think this view is stronger ever since Alan Hirsch's book 'The Shaping of things to come' came about.

To quote McLaren " The Church exists to form Christ-like people, people of Christ like love". Sounds pretty simple wish I could do it better.

Christian leaders popularity conference....

Had a laugh at this one, from the 'Out of Ur' blog (I didn't know what else to do!)

For this reason I was both saddened and disturbed by the Leadership Network’s decision to run a Twitter-based popularity contest to determine the speakers for THE NINES conference in 2010. The feedback form seen here allows users to submit the name of a church leader. Twitter users are then able to give a thumbs up or down to each person. Ranking is then automatically determined by the ratio of positive to negative votes a leader receives. Adding a dash of arsenic to an already distasteful dish, the site allows you to see exactly who voted up or down for each leader.

From the 'Feed back from', it was good to see Alan Hirsch our old mate from forge made the top ten. I was also surprised at the number one Francis Chan, I've read his book and found it cloaked in so much Christian culture most people would have though he was an alien. (Mind you 10 years ago I probably would have thought this book great!)

So would this make me want to go it, 'Nope': if I was a contestant would I want to go to it 'Nope', I'd be interested if Alan gos to it?

Now, what would Jesus do???

Forge America

Interestingly Forge America is taking off...Hosted by the bastion of Evangelicalism Wheaton College.

Keynote speakers will be Alan and Debra Hirsch, authors, Founding Directors of Forge and International Consultants; Mike Frost Assistant Principal of Morling College.....If you have questions or need more info contact Kim Hammond, National Director of Forge America.

Does this feel like deja vu from about 10 years ago! Pity Forge Australia is winding down, miss the crew a bit. Nice the link back to Australia Forge though...

Forge Australia Winding Dooowwwn

Had a phone call then got the email from the Forge crew last week about Forge winding down its operations in Australia. Then Al put up his note on Facebook.

The official line from the Forge web site as follows::

Several factors (among others) have contributed to this:

1. There has been an encouraging shift in the Australian church context in regards to missional awareness. Forge began very much as a prophetic voice that helped catalyze a missional movement. That shift has necessitated a change in our identity and structure, but it is not a change we have been able to successfully implement for reasons outlined in points 2 & 3 below.

2. A depletion of people and financial resources. We have struggled to keep operations sustainable and we observe that this may be an indicator that it is time to seriously re-assess our viability as an organization.

3. Our current decentralized organizational structure has made it difficult to move ahead cohesively. The challenges associated with transitioning Forge to be an effective training organisation for the new context proved too costly.

I suppose one of the things that I observed was that a lot of Forge was based around some amazing personalities, who were held together by the c haracter of Alan Hirsch. When Al left for the states a lot of these people just wern't around like they used to be... Anyway...

Its with a fair bit of saddness, both Christina and myself feel about its winding down. Forge for us was a breath of fresh air when we needed it most. Helping us break through a religiousness of the way of doing thing in our own denomination. There is a bit of a question now looming for me. Where will we find kindred spirits? Where will the tribe now gather?

Forge for a long while was the only voice, but now they are many and in many ways fragmented. Often having a denationalization or theological bent. In some ways that's a bit sad. It will be interesting what the future brings.

South Melbourne Restoration Community. The end...

[Update] Just got an email from Mark Sayers, who just wanted to point out that Al Hirsch, John Jensen et al; not mention on the web site was an oversight, and a new web site will be put up latter with these details amended.

One of the reasons I mention this church is because it was on the edge. Making a real impact on its community. What came out of it and still does has made local, national and international impact and is still doing so.

It had a few different incarnations. Some of which are documented in Alan Hirschs book 'The Shaping of things to Come.'

The last incarnation was four groups of missional communities, spread across Melbourne called the 'Red Network'. Here is a blurb from the history::

In 2003 South Melbourne Restoration Community decided that God was moving us away from being a localised Church in South Melbourne into a network of vibrant missional churches across our city and thus the Red Network was born with four Tribes being connected; North, South, East and West. The aim of this network was to take the ethos of South Melbourne Restoration Community and adapt it to the other areas in Melbourne. Although sharing the same values, each Tribe looked different depending on the area in which it based itself. South remained committed to those in the South Melbourne area, particularly providing a Church haven with those who struggled with sexual identity. North based itself in Fitzroy, exploring various ways of reaching Melbourne’s cool and hip, West sought to minister to the western poor in Footscray and surrounding areas and East based itself in Box Hill with the aim of serving the strongly Asian migrant community. In essence a lot of these tribes attracted a lot of young adults who, although still wanting to have a faith in Christ, were leaving conventional church models and seeking what it means to really ‘be’ church in post-Christian Western Culture.

In 2009, six years on the seasons have changed and many lessons have been learnt. The West, North and South tribes ceased due to leadership changes, and Martin DeGraaf (leader of the Network) moved on to explore other work. Mark Sayers, (one of the few people who has been part of the entire Red History to date), became the leader of Red in Jan 09. After an extensive process of review Red has now transistioned from being a network to being a church in Box Hill. Having experimented and gleaned from all sorts of notions of ‘being’ and ‘doing’ church Red is now at a refined stage of defining itself as a church which is a balance of being evangelically based, holy spirit led and social justice orientated.

Interestingly Alan Hirsch's name's not mentioned in the history, even though he was one of the forces involved in setting up the network, as well as one senior ministers at South Melbourne Restoration. Also part of the network was John Jenson, a character who was often found doing itinerant preaching and having an important profile around Melbourne.

What would be interesting would be some of Hirschy and Mark Sayers thoughts regarding its demise. What lessons were learnt?

It would also be interesting why Mark Sayers has gone down the established church route (Kids?)

It with sadness that the Church has gone from South Melbourne. I had visited a few times. made the pilgrimage like so many others, to the church which was making a real impact on their community. I suppose its hard to be on the edge for so long. There is a huge energy requirement.

Leadership ::4 Alan Hirsch, moving on...

Sometimes a person will say something which sits very deeply with you. It is how I have evaluated part of my own ministry and, for the good or bad others ministry as well.

That person was Alan Hirsch. What he said was basically that every five years your leadership methods needs to change. That in five years if there has been no significant growth then things need to change. If in five years there has been significant growth then there is a need for change in your leadership methods because you are now working with more people.
If after ten years, where there was no significant growth in the first five years and there was a re-jigging of leadership methods, then there was still no significant growth in ten years . Then its time to move on.

I have seen beyond a doubt churches, which are stagnate, yet the main leadership is satisfied that they are doing alright. Mmmm, time for critical evaluation I would say. Just looking at the Hirsch idea is a good place to start.

Its petty good idea, except I think five years is to long. I'd like to think a more realistic time would be three to four years.

God is Back

Listened to the podcast on Radio National with Philip Adams 'God is back'

There are now more Christians in China than there are members of the Communist party and while Pentecostalism has been growing like crazy in Latin America, it's South Korea where you'll find five of the world's ten biggest mega-churches. In 'God is Back', John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge track the revival of religion in a world where previously, intellectuals assumed that modernism would kill religion.

What I found interesting was that some of the ideas were the same as put forward by Alan Hirsch and his mates. That in persecution the Christian church is more likely to experience growth.

I also thought it as interesting the word "pastorpreneur", how these minister are changing. An example was Ps Rick Warren. He is more 'Green', looking more at issues regarding social justice. And not inclined to be so public with social moralizing.

Worth a listen, check it out here.

Forge intensive, 2009, @ Northern Church of Christ

Just a few thoughts...

*I didn't meet anyone from the pioneering stream. Once upon a time there was only the pioneering stream.

*Most of the people who I met were getting accredited from bible colleges or just decided to do a one off intensive.

*It would appear that most people are in mainstream churches, that some are exploring the idea of transitioning.

*It was good to hear Alan Hirsch speak. I have this nagging question. Is Alan still a pioneering practitioner. Or has he turned his hand at helping churches mainly large, in transitioning. I suspect the latter. 

*It was good to hang out with people who are exploring mission and missional theory to an Australian context.

*Christina spoke well on sustainability, lots of positive feedback.

An evening with Deb and Alan Hirsch

Tonight myself and the girls went to an evening with Deb and Alan Hirsch. This post is done on the iPhone so sorry about the quality. I've just jotted down the main points.

Deb's reflections.

US

Sevice based. Can do. We can do ideas.

Aussie

Rather cynical, what you see is what you get. Authentic but a little bit rude.

A lot more competition with Australian Churches.
A negative spirit in the church, within Australia.

Alan thoughts

Warning against missional liberalism. (would have liked to have seen this unpacked a bit)

A synergy happening with larger churches and new missional thinking.

US will be where western church is turned around.

There were a lot more points, but these got me pondering.